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  Philip Ruddock, Immigration & Ethnic Affairs PAUL LYNEHAM - REPORTER: Philip Ruddock, welcome to Sunday. PHILIP RUDDOCK - MINISTER FOR IMMIGRATION AND ETHNIC AFFAIRS: Thank you very much Paul. LYNEHAM: Well let's start with those so-called Gucci boat people. You said their journey involved sophisticated organisation. Do you fear that this could be the start of a new ... a new set of ... wave of boat people propelled by organised crime? RUDDOCK: Well we certainly know that to the United States there have been quite sophisticated operations over a long period of time. Most of the arrivals to Australia have come from southern China, principally from Bai He [ph.sp.]. The vessels have been essentially small. Usually the organisers of them, because money's always involved in it, are part of the group that come to Australia. In this case, you've got a very large vessel that had to be acquired, that ... LYNEHAM: And well equipped. RUDDOCK: Yes, with quite sophisticated navigational equipment. LYNEHAM: From Fujian province, which does have a reputation for organised crime in general and immigration rackets in particular. RUDDOCK: Well it certainly has a reputation for being the source of most of the arrivals to the United States of America. LYNEHAM: Is it to suggest that the penny ante operators have been shouldered aside by the big boys now then? RUDDOCK: Well I think what you find is that there are always people who are prepared to trade in moving individuals from one country to another for immigration purposes. And what you find, of course, is that they look at where they might surmise that there are soft targets. LYNEHAM: But if they're employing more technology, better boats, that sort of thing, it's going to be harder for you to stop them isn't it? RUDDOCK: I think it's very important that we continue to handle them in the way in which we have. And since the new Government came to office, there was something of the order of five hundred people who arrived in various boats in north Australia and I was able to ensure the removal of all of them from Australia after we had satisfied ourselves that they had no protection claims. LYNEHAM: If the Chinese were to make a mess of Hong Kong, would you expect many more such boats to be heading our way? RUDDOCK: Well we don't expect in relation to Hong Kong that there will be difficulties of that sort. We're very encouraged by the way in which the changeover has been progressing, but obviously there are a whole lot of factors relating to Hong Kong which we've kept under review. But we're very positive about the way in which it's proceeding at the moment. LYNEHAM: And your nightmare is not a whole big exodus from Hong Kong heading south? RUDDOCK: It's certainly not something that I expect. But we certainly plan for contingencies that might arise. LYNEHAM: If it costs you about three hundred and seven thousand dollars to move this one boat load from Torres Strait to Port Hedland, any sort of big wave from Hong Kong would start to run into the millions very fast wouldn't it? RUDDOCK: Look, there is no doubt that if you have large numbers of people seeking to enter Australia illegally, clandestinely, that there are significant costs associated with it. But the costs pale into insignificance when you look at the potential for claims that might arise in the way in which they have to be dealt with. The cost of the refugee system that we have in place here in Australia are very significant and I haven't in any way understated the costs that are involved. They are quite significant. LYNEHAM: You can't send these latest people home until it's clear whether or not they are claiming refugee status can you? Have you got any early indications? RUDDOCK: I ... I have nothing that I can talk about at the moment. But what I can say is that we do take our international obligations seriously and we do test whether or not people are making protection claims. But our experience has been before, and I am not commenting on this group, that our experience has been before that this ... this type of boat load do not present substantial claims. LYNEHAM: Minister, do you accept that under the Howard Government, there's now less community consensus and more bitterness around immigration policy than they've seen for many, many years? RUDDOCK: Well, one of the aspects of the changes that I've been embarked upon in relation to migration and the way in which it's handled is to ensure that there is as little fuel as possible in relation to the immigration program for people who are concerned about those sorts of issues to be able to use. And it's one of the reasons that I've already flagged significant reform in relation to character issues because we were seeing numbers of people able to remain in Australia because Administrative Tribunals took a more relaxed view than either I or my officials would normally take in relation to deportation. LYNEHAM: But Mr Ruddock, at the election ... at the election, the message we were getting from the Coalition was much more about continuity of policy, rather than the cut backs and the clamp downs that we are seeing now. Did you then have a secret agenda? Or are we now in a state of crisis management? RUDDOCK: Well if you look at the policy that we wrote for that election, the issues that I've taken up were clearly foreshadowed. The issue of character, the question's being addressed with firmness were addressed, the issue in relation to sham marriages and the changes that were foreshadowed, in relation to testing spouses for entry were clearly foreshadowed, the changes that I have foreshadowed in relation to the asylum system were clearly outlined in the policy document. What we were saying was that we weren't terribly troubled about immigration programs of about their present size and if you look at the changes that we've introduced while the program numbers have come down, I wouldn't argue that it was terribly different to the sort of outline that you saw in our policy document. LYNEHAM: Now your biggest concern, despite the headlines, really isn't boat people is it? It's jumbo jet people who come here on proper visas and then overstay and claim refugee status? RUDDOCK: It's a major issue and it's one that will be before the Parliament in the next week or so because we've embarked upon a number of measures to ensure that the way in which we handle these issues is with efficacy, efficiency and that we are able to remove quickly those people who have no bona fide claims. We get something of the order of ten thousand people applying for refugee status onshore in Australia at the moment and large numbers of them are from countries where no legitimate claims usually arise. I cited in parliament this week that we've dealt with three thousand claims from people from the Philippines, Fiji, Western Samoa, Tonga and what they are seeking are work rights in Australia. They're being advised by people that if they enter the protection stream, they will be able to stay here for a certain amount of time. The more people applying, the longer it will take us to handle their claims and what I have to do is ensure that we're able to deal with these issues quickly, get them out of the system and what I'm concerned about is that I might be thwarted in relation to a number of reforms that we wish to put in place. We've made some regulations which come into place on first of July which would restrict access to employment to those who make their asylum claims within fourteen days. LYNEHAM: And you're going to face some problems tomorrow in the Senate, aren't you? The Greens are likely to disallow one of your regulations. The idea being that if an application for refugee status fails, the applicant then has to cough up a thousand dollars. RUDDOCK: Well, we do have in mind a post-determination fee. A fee of ... LYNEHAM: A bit tough, isn't it? RUDDOCK: No, it's a fee that arises in relation to considering applications through all stages, where the costs involved are very significant. It costs somebody to go to the Refugee Review Tribunal, or it costs us something like of the order of four thousand dollars to handle a refugee claim and we're asking those who don't succeed, that is, those who have no bona fide claims to pay a thousand dollars towards those costs. LYNEHAM: But they don't know they're ... they're not going to succeed. They could be quite sincere by ... by effectively fining them a thousand dollars later on, you're treating them as though they were a rorter right from the start. RUDDOCK: I don't believe that's the approach. What we ... what I tell my officer is, that if a person presents with bona fide claims, they should be accepted. But what we do know is Australia has many more successful claimants than most comparatable [sic] western countries and I would certainly argue that marginal claims get through our system much more easily than they do elsewhere. And I would think there are very few bona fide people who would be subjected to these potential costs. LYNEHAM: Minister, your critics also say you ... you've tried to nobble the Refugee Review Tribunal by getting rid of many of its members and that now you're going to try to stop appeal to the courts. To the Federal Court and then the High Court. RUDDOCK: Well, certainly there have been changes in relation to the membership of the Tribunal. All of the appointments were term appointments, they came to an end. We reappointed about half of those who had applied and ... LYNEHAM: And got rid of the other half. RUDDOCK: Well, what we did was subjected them to a system in which we tested their performance and their performance was in terms of the numbers of cases they were able to hear. Whether there were appeals from their decisions, which were upheld in the courts, and whether or not they had a significantly different ratio of approvals to other Tribunal members. LYNEHAM: But ... but how can we have a ... a ... a seemingly independent Tribunal and yet you say, other measures will include clearer articulation of my expectations and directions to Tribunal members? RUDDOCK: In relation to performance? Absolutely right. LYNEHAM: And that's independent? RUDDOCK: Of course, but you expect them to make a merits judgement independently, but we expect them to perform and I don't apologise for expecting that Tribunal members should be able to do more than a couple of cases a week. We had a situation where some Tribunal members were only able to give us a performance ratio of about one decision a fortnight. LYNEHAM: On one side, you've got Pauline Hanson and if you don't toughen up, she's going to give you a kicking. On the other side, if you do she claims the credit for it. RUDDOCK: Well, let me make it very clear. That as far as I am concerned, I have to run the migration program with efficacy. I have to address the problems as they arise and I'm not going to be deterred by the sorts of comments that might come from a fringe area, such as the Pauline Hanson and her supporters. LYNEHAM: A double dissolution on the Wik issue raises the prospect of an election fought on race. I imagine that would be among your worst nightmares. RUDDOCK: Well, let me make it very clear. At the Government's approach in relation to these issues, is totally non-discriminatory and we take decisions as we see them in the public interest and we will certainly continue to press those issues that we believe are concerned and we won't be put off. But obviously, we would not like to see any election fought on issues of race in a divisive way which might in any way jeopardise our social cohesion. We have been very successful in being able to bring to Australia over a long period of time people from many backgrounds, many cultures, many different countries, people of different races. We've been held out as an example to the rest of the world and it's certainly my view that the policies that the Government pursues should reinforce those values that are important to us which are cohesive, but which acknowledge people's differences. LYNEHAM: And finally and briefly minister, you promised a five million dollar anti-racism education campaign in '96/97, well that's about to run out. We haven't seen the campaign at all. Did it get stuck on the Prime Minister's desk? RUDDOCK: No, what we ... what we have sought to do is to ensure that any program is able to achieve its objective and we want to ensure that the sort of issues that are of concern are adequately researched so that we know that when we do embark upon it, it will shift community attitudes. LYNEHAM: Is it going to happen soon? RUDDOCK: It will happen during the course of the next year. LYNEHAM: The next year now? RUDDOCK: Next financial year. LYNEHAM: Philip Ruddock, thanks for your time. RUDDOCK: Good to talk to you. ENDS. Transcript supplied by Rehame Australia. Click here for a printer-friendly version. |
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